IGN Vault IRC Chat

Jumpgate Evolution Q&A with NetDevil

Jumpgate fans get the chance to grill Netdevil about their upcoming
MMO - Jumpgate Evolution
logged and posted by selbie @ Gamespot.com - 28 May, 2008.


Atombomb: Will you(JGE) be @ GenCon Indy in August
[10:08] <+NDHermann> we currently don't have specific plans to attend,
but we'd love to figure out a way to get to more shows :)

Dexmex: Question: how do you differentiate the starsystems so much that if you're a trader(or am just traveling) you won't always just go in a straight line to the next system?
[10:09] <+NDIstvan> Dexmex, we're planning to set up the sectors such that you don't have many straight-line paths.
[10:10] <+NDIstvan> It's fun to fly around stuff, but there's also a limit - heavy haulers turn slowly, so there will be a mix.

Matt4: Given that it seems to be there will be a safer interior sectors, I was wondering what kind of pvp you had envisioned for the outer, unsafe reions? More specifically, will large scale squad warfare for territory/resources be a reality and supported with the game mechanics?
[10:12] <+NDIstvan> We absolutely want the outer or unsafe regions to be dominated by squad/guild conflict, and that's exactly it - we want warfare over resources supported by the game mechanics themselves.

Jam: Q. A lot of combat in Jumpgate would occur around jumpgates, such as camping reg/unreg. Will JGE do anything to avoid this?
[10:14] <+NDIstvan> Well, there are two problems, the border beign 'safe" or trying to make the thing One-way, such as the person arriving cannot shoot, which is also bad.  One thing we're looking at in the tech is authenticating the person so we know they're fully there before we display them.

Atombomb: Will we be able to have multiple profiles on the same server, in different factions?
[10:16] <+NDIstvan> Yes, the current code allows six characters per account, with no faction restrictions.
[10:16] <+NDIstvan> We're expecting to have to limit faction on PvP-only servers, if any.  However, we feel that intercommunication among factions is actually a beneficial feature and want to preserve it.

[10:18] <@Rosethorn> WhiteInferno: How will "consensual PvP" be handled?
[10:20] <+NDIstvan> Well, at this point we have not focused very much on the specifics of PvP gameplay due to our development methodology.  However, we expect that on the non-PvP servers we'll see open PvP in the unregulated areas and only consensual PvP in the regulated, while the Open pvP servers will be completely unrestricted.

Slopey: Question: how's the auction system shaping up, and has there been any decision on delivery options (AI/Mission/Player based) yet. thx :)
[10:21] <+NDHermann> The auction house is coming along quite well. All the base functionality is there. One of the things we are trying to do is make items have a persistant state about them. This means that an item is located where you buy it. you can then request to have it delivered (for a fee) and it will actually be on a transport ship which flies throgh space to deliver it... it's really cool actually!
[10:22] <+NDHermann> How far we go with the delivery stuff remains to be seen. Needless to say economics is a big part of space games so I'm imagining a lot of work in that area going forward.

Emon: How much voice acting can we expect in JGE?  For example will mission text be voice acted (As in the X-Wing series, Starlancer, Tachyon, among others) or just text?  Will there be NPC's talking over the radio?
[10:23] <+NDIstvan> We're using fairly limited voice acting right now, but we love the effect and ambiance and we're adding it wherever we can without it being annoying.  We've got radio chatter in the game already and we really like it.  Of course, if it gets repetitive, it's annoying, so we're working to avoid that.
Souleater: There's a lot of debate on the PVP, PVE divide. Has any decision been taken on how the split will be handled i.e. safe zones, seperate server rulesets, something other?
[10:24] <+NDHermann> You're right... PvP and PvE always brings up lots of conflict. Our approach has been to try and provide a compelling game experience for both side. Our current plan is to have servers that have a sort of split between "safe" and "unsafe" areas and then PvP servers which are more or less wide open. On top of that we plan to have PvP battlespace type areas as well as XP given for PvP so that you can progress without doing PvE if you so desire.

WhiteInferno: Will we be allowed to have characters on different servers with one account, since it seems there will be a PvP/non-PvP server divide?
[10:25] <+awen_nd> Yes, we will allow you to have many different characters on many different shards. We're really open to allowing for alot of freedom.

Dexmex: Question: how intelligent are the AI opponents. Do they make surprise manoeuvres, hide, run away, join up with other NPC's to gang on you, etc?
[10:28] <+NDIstvan> Right now, we've got a pretty versatile system that allows the AI to be fairly unpredictable.  We have considered trying to script them, but badly want to avoid that to leave the spontaneity.  At the moment they do join up or group to attack you, or support each other, and I personally find some of their manuvers surprising.  We've really only scratched the surface of our system, though, leaving them doing fairly basic things while we work on other content.

Atombomb: Will we have the ability to name a ship and have that name appear on the hull?
[10:28] <+NDHermann> currently, that doesn't exist. Although, customization is something that we feel is critical. It's irritating... as a developer you always have to decide between this feature and that feature and kind of weight which one is the most important. There's also the issue of bandwidth, server capacity and network traffic which all conspire against certain kinds of customization. That being said, it would be frekin' sweet!

Emon: In safe zones, will we be unable to fire weapons, will our weapons just not damage players, or will everything function normally but penalties given to people who attack other players?  In short, how will safe zones work?  (I bet this question has come through a lot)
[10:31] <+NDHermann> In short no matter what you do it will not satisfy everyone, so you have to make the best of it :)

Telecton: As a former Classic Jumpgate player, will we see Honor Guard and Civilian tags make a come back to Jumpgate Evolution?
[10:32] <+NDIstvan> Telecton, Tritian - we haven't made a final decision on whether we will need a tag-based system (Civ, HG, etc) in Jumpgate Evolution in order to regulate PvP.  When PvP content comes to the fore in our development process, we'll work through that and begin testing our options for playability.
[10:32] <+NDIstvan> The real answer is that we haven't chosen a toggle mechanism or if one will be required.

Souleater: Some of the background has been hinted at on various communtiy sites, when will the JGE database pages be updated with background info?
[10:34] <+awen_nd> Hey Soul! We do have a few pieces of background information waiting in queue to be put on the website. However, we're waiting for a few assets to make sure that they are not only a good read, but they create a picture of the story we're trying to tell. I'm working on getting something up for you as soon as I possibly can.

Matt4: Seeing how the game is being set up to be as skill based as possible, I was wondering if there were features such, as a race against time to access to the next teir engines being planned, aim competition for weapons, etc Or if something like this would ever be considered?
[10:34] <+NDHermann> Those are great ideas. The basic goal is to try and take advantage of the fact that we are a skill based game. Things like gun accuracy, missile accuracy, kill to death ratios and so on are stored and rewarded. we haven't done a race mechanic per se, but it is a good idea. I also really like the aim competition idea, though we certainly don't have that right now.
[10:35] <+NDHermann> We've also discussed things like obstacle courses (i.e. difficult to navigate fields) which lead to more advanced parts of the game...

Atombomb: What will be the options for persepective, 1st person, 3rd, chase etc...
[10:35] <+NDIstvan> We've got a 3rd person chase/shoulder view from behind the ship, as well as a 1st-person cockpit view.  There are some other camera views, such as a zoom-out function that may or may not remain usable for players.
[10:36] <+NDIstvan> The difficult task is ensuring that both the control modes and the views taken together pass no particular advantage in gameplay, but are just a matter of preference.

Emon Is there any skill or licensing system, or is level and money the only restricting factor in buying equipment/ships?
[10:37] <+awen_nd> There is a licensing system that we're working on. However, with that said there is certainly level and money built in so it's a triad of the three. :) There will be restrictions based upon your standing with your Nation and your subfaction
[10:37] <+awen_nd> It's going to be a pretty interesting level of gameplay I think.

Tiu: Are there any plans for putting servers in each time zone in North America?
[10:38] <+NDHermann> The goal is to put as many servers as we can support with the player base that is playing the game. It's basically no different than other MMOs. The worst thing in an MMO is an empty world, so if you spread it too thin, people feel like "no one is playing." My hope is that tons of people play and we actually end up with many servers in the same time zone :).

Atombomb:with the Ah [Auction House] and paying to have items delivered, will we be able to take the request as players to transport such items?
[10:39] <+NDIstvan> Right now, that functionality isn't implemented, but the tie to the job system is absolutely something we are planning to do by beta or release.

Souleater: Q. About crafting, how is the crafting system coming along? and when do we get more details ?
[10:40] <+NDIstvan> We're really right in the thick of constructing the crafting system this week.  We're really excited about how it's going but don't want to talk about it much until it's further along.
[10:41] <+NDIstvan> I'm afraid details will have to wait until things are ready - things are changing as we go.  If I'd told you all about the system last week I would have ended up lying, and we don't want to do that to you.

selbie: Q. In an interview with Keith Baker, he mentioned another threat other than the Conflux. Is there more information on this?
[10:41] <+awen_nd> There is a threat other than the Conflux. And yes...there is more information on this. But if I told you I'd have to KOS you Selbie and I'd hate doing that to someone so nice. 

Tritian: Can you describe how big these consenting 'safe zones' are? Are they the entire faction space?
[10:42] <+NDHermann> Basically they are as big or as small as we want them to be. If you think of one "map" being an area you can jump in and out of, it will be at that resolution. Thus when you jump into an area it will either be an open-PvP area or not; this way the decision is made at that point. However, we plan on putting PvP events into zones not designated as PvP, which means that you'd have to be willing to engage in PvP to engage in those events.

Warnis: Hi, got a question for ya: What is netdevils current focus in development?
[10:45] <+NDIstvan> Well, it's about an hour presentation to tell you all about our dev methodology, which is the real way to answer that.  Our team is growing right now (we just added 2 more coders this week) and so our focus is expanding in real time.  We've got people working economy, as well as on the mission system and technical infrastructure, but every two weeks we readjust our focus as necessary.
[10:46] <+NDIstvan> Ask again after the end of the week and some of us will be working on different areas, while others will still be on the same key projects.

Dexmex: Question: How are you handling the multiple characters possible for one person in regards to wars(double agents) and problems as such? I remember EvE-online had(has) these kind of problems.
[10:49] <+NDHermann> nameAhh yes. this is a tricky one as well. Having played lots of MMOs I know that no matter how well the developer enfocres it within their game, I can simply circumvent it with external communication tools. As long as I'm willing to pay for 2 accounts I can still do all of things. Thus, we feel that it's preferable to try and solve the problem by taking it into account with the game design. So by making it a bit more open it makes the pro
[10:49] <+NDHermann> that is, it becomes part of the game as opposed to something we are trying to crush. that being said, we might have to do things like prevent same account for having characters across nations. In a perfect world, I'd love to be able to control it much more, but it just isn't something that can easily be done.

Telecton: If there is a PvE server, where there be more interaction with NPCs where you fly with in in a faction vs faction battle?
Telecton: what I ment to say was "fly with them as wingman in"
[10:50] <+NDHermann> It depends what you mean. On the one hand you have grouping which is basically flying with other people. On the other hand there is a kind of mentoring system where new players can be taken under the wing of veterens for a mutual benefit. I suppose those are two types.
[10:51] <+NDHermann> The one area we don't have right now is flying with other NPCs in a group... which is typical of single player Space games.

Atombomb: Will there be zones that are off limits due to our level, or can we freely roam anywhere, with consequences of course
[10:51] <+awen_nd> One of the really great things about this game is that we encourage you to do whatever you can think of. That means that if you want to travel this Skein from end to end you can do so and you won't be restricted to where you can go, but there are certainly consequences for flying into a dangerous sector at lower levels.

WhiteInferno: How many varieties of ship are there? One shuttle, one light fighter, one med fighter, etc. for each faction? Or will there be multiple of each class for each faction?
[10:52] <+NDIstvan> We haven't settled on how many ships we need, by any means, but we fully expect that there will be more than one variation within a ship class, such as two or three light fighters for a single nation.

bblackmoor: Question: Will there be rules in place to maintain a civil community, and will there be GMs who aggressively enforce those rules with meaningful penalties?
[10:53] <+NDHermann> Personally I hate it when the game lets me do something and then I'm told that I'm not supposed to do it...
[10:53] <+NDHermann> so hopefully we can avoid that as much as possible.

Matt4: In your previous answers you mention things such as unrestricted PVP on some servers. While this makes sense for the unregulaed areas, for the systems that would have been considered "safe" on a reular server, will there be any penalty/deterent at all to killing another player, or entirly shoot first ask questions later?
[10:55] <+NDHermann> this is similar to the question above, I think. The approach we are taking is that we don't want to allow for game play that we then punish. for example, imagine if you can be a thief in a game and there is a mechanic to steal stuff. Then we ban you for stealing... that doesn't make sense to me. If you don't want people to steal, don't make a mechanic for stealing. thus if you have an open PvP environment and people complain that they are
[10:56] <+NDHermann> So if we want to create a "safe" area we need to make sure that it's safe rather than keeping it dangerous and punishing people who break the unenforced rules.

Slopey: Question: can you explain the Vertical Slice method of development for those don't know what it is - to give some insight into the process and why some information might not be forthcoming immeadiately
[10:57] <+NDHermann> This is something that we started doing about a year and a half ago. Basically the idea is that you take ego out of the process. You assume that you don't what will work and what won't. then you think of what might be fun to play and implement it.
[10:57] <+NDHermann> then you test it and fix the problems.
[10:57] <+NDHermann> That cycle continues until whatever part of the game you are working on is "done"
[10:57] <+NDHermann> and you stay on that until you are happy with it. Obviously it's much more organic than that and it's reasonably painful from a development point of view.
[10:58] <+NDHermann> However, the end result is that you have a higher quality type of game because you focus on one thing at a time instead of a giant ball of crap. Quality over quantity I suppose. This is why when we answer questions with "we don't know" or "when it's ready" we're not being coy... we actually don't know.

Souleater: do we have an approx time scale until beta ?
[10:59] <+awen_nd> Like Hermann's answer above, we just don't know. When it's ready is the best answer here.

[11:00] <@Rosethorn> Thank you so much Nicole and Steve and Hermann for joining us in our inaugural dev chat.  We had a great time and we hope you did too!
[11:00] <+NDIstvan> Thanks for such great questions.  We were glad to be here.
[11:00] <+awen_nd> Thanks for having us Rose. :) We're always happy to do these.
[11:00] <+awen_nd> and thanks to our community for coming out and asking really good questions
[11:00] <@Rosethorn> Opening room now :D


[11:01] * Rosethorn sets mode: -m
[11:01] <@Rosethorn> buzz away!
[11:01] <Souleater> Thanks Guys
[11:01] <WhiteInferno> Thank you NetDevil!
[11:01] <Matt4> thanks alot!
[11:01] <biteme> No binikies how dissapointing
01[11:01] <selbie> Thankyou ND
[11:01] <Dexmex> YEah, thanks, was alot of fun..
[11:01] <Slopey> Thanks all :)
[11:01] <WhiteInferno> Awesome answers, my questions were all answered.
[11:01] <@TrinityDivine> Thank you everyone. Sorry we couldn't accomodate all your questions...
[11:01] <+NDHermann> thanks everyone.
[11:01] <+NDHermann> now back to work for us :)
[11:01] <Moldy> No ponies? :(
[11:01] <Matt4> i wont hold a grudge, this was way mre than i ever hoped for from this!
[11:02] <WhiteInferno> Yeah, this was very good. Very good.
[11:02] <Matt4> beta and safe zones, we still wonder :P other than that hit the nail right on the head
[11:02] <WhiteInferno> See you all later. Good luck on the game.
[11:02] <Matt4> I kid though it was fantastic
[11:02] <Slopey> Btw - the log is up on the General Chat forum if anyone wants to re-read later
[11:02] <WhiteInferno> Yeah, I got a copy of a log myself
[11:02] <Souleater> nice one slopey :)
[11:03] <WhiteInferno> Not as good as slippy slopes, though.
[11:03] <@Rosethorn> An edited version of log will be up on IGN Vault tomorrow :)
[11:03] <Moldy> I got a log of the invisible text. It was between the lines
[11:03] <Matt4> ...
[11:03] <Warnis> I'll just go off and dream about jumpgate then, good night
[11:03] <@Ocura> Those were merely my subliminal messages Moldy
[11:03] <WhiteInferno> Thanks, rosethorn
[11:03] <WhiteInferno> See ya, Warnis.
[11:04] <Matt4> well
[11:04] <@Rosethorn> My pleasure :)  I've always loved doing dev chats so I'm glad Vault is back in that business!
[11:04] <Matt4> they like large scale squad warfare
[11:04] <Matt4> that pretty much decides im getting the game
[11:04] <WhiteInferno> Never done this before. Fun.
[11:04] <Matt4> not that i wasnt already
[11:04] <Matt4> but this decides my GPA will drop to 1
[11:05] <WhiteInferno> :P
[11:05] <+NDIstvan> Back to work for me.  Be well, everyone.
[11:05] <WhiteInferno> See ya, Istvan
[11:05] <Slopey> By Ist :)
[11:05] <Slopey> bye even :)
[11:05] <Matt4> think they paid awen for that quit message?
[11:05] <Matt4> :P
[11:05] <WhiteInferno> :P
[11:05] <Slopey> and why isn't it a JGE message eh????
[11:05] <WhiteInferno> Good question.
[11:06] <Matt4> hermann got out-bidded?
[11:06] <Moldy> Nah
[11:06] <WhiteInferno> XD
[11:06] <Souleater> hehe :)
[11:06] <Matt4> Should see if i can get her to agree to "matt was here"
[11:06] <+NDHermann> i always get outbidded :)
[11:06] <Slopey> lol
[11:06] <@TrinityDivine> Night everyone :)
[11:06] <Souleater> night
[11:06] <Matt4> cya, thanks again!
[11:06] <Dexmex> nn
[11:06] <WhiteInferno> Night trinity. THanks
[11:06] <Slopey> night trinity, and thanks!
[11:07] <bblackmoor> I am so looking forward to this game.
[11:07] <+NDHermann> me too
[11:07] <Matt4> no kidding
[11:07] <+NDHermann> we really can't wait to get it out ther e:)
[11:07] <WhiteInferno> Agreed, bblackmoor.
[11:07] <bblackmoor> It sound like it will be a week to ten years before it comes out, though.
[11:07] <+NDHermann> heheh
[11:07] <+NDHermann> it won't
[11:07] <Slopey> Soon (tm)
[11:07] <+NDHermann> it just feels like it
[11:07] <WhiteInferno> I thought it was Shortly (tm)?
[11:07] <Moldy> coding always feels like that
[11:07] <Matt4> no less work when it comes out, but more money making.
[11:07] <Souleater> yeah well, if you can hang on a couple of months , I'm moving house, hate to miss the start because of no broadband :)
[11:07] <@Rosethorn> soon tm is my wording!
[11:07] <+NDHermann> we just dont want to release a crappy game :)
[11:07] <+NDHermann> we say soon(tm) all the time :P
[11:08] <Dexmex> well, much better than something rushed :p
[11:08] <bblackmoor> That would be bad.
[11:08] <+NDHermann> yeah...
[11:08] <Dexmex> i can  wait
[11:08] <Tritian> alright i'm back! hizzzah
[11:08] <@Rosethorn> when the boss asks me when something will be done, i say soon tm Hehe
[11:08] <+NDHermann> releasing early... so many mmos did that
[11:08] <Tritian> i missed half the chat =(
[11:08] <Matt4> *cough* vanguard
[11:08] <@Rosethorn> y'all should try it!  i'm not promising you'll keep your jobs ...
[11:08] <WhiteInferno> Slopey has a log
[11:08] <Emon> slopey posted it on the forums trit
[11:08] <Tritian> k
[11:08] <+NDHermann> i dont think you missed that much trit :) we had tech issues early.
[11:08] <Slopey> http://community.netdevil.com/showthread.php?t=1829
[11:08] <bblackmoor> I am glad to hear that there will be a variety of ship designs. That is SO important. Even if they are not that different mechanically.
[11:09] <@Rosethorn> And thank you to the person who mentioned my interview with Keith!
[11:09] <Matt4> trit: everything awesome and we know nothing new about safe zones
[11:09] <Matt4> should sum it up ^^
[11:09] <Tritian> hmm
[11:09] <WhiteInferno> Actually, we know a bit more
01[11:09] <selbie> no problemo :D
[11:09] <@Rosethorn> Glad my spending 2 days at penguicon was worth it hehe
[11:09] <@Rosethorn> (not that i'm complaining, penguicon was fun :D)
[11:09] <Tritian> There will definitely be a PvP shard though, right? where there is no 'consensual pvp'
[11:09] <Slopey> can't wait for the Keith backstory/story, should be great
[11:09] <Tritian> correct>?
[11:09] <Tritian> that's all i care about
[11:09] <bblackmoor> As long as no one can camp jumpgates, and no one has to participate in PVP if they do not wish to do so, I will be happy about it.
[11:09] <Tritian> at this point
[11:10] <WhiteInferno> Good work on that, rosethorn. One of the best interviews I read. Information
[11:10] <Matt4> they seem to think thats the case
[11:10] <Emon> they mentioned an unrestricted pvp shard, yes
[11:10] <WhiteInferno> I didn't mean to spell it wrong! Sheesh.
[11:10] <Matt4> what the penalties are if any anywhere on such a server are still unknown tho
[11:10] <Souleater> yeah I can't wait for the backstory, We have a chunk of QS background lined up, but we dont' want to contridict anything :)
[11:10] <WhiteInferno> Oh, and you can be on both servers
[11:10] <Matt4> did we get that white?
[11:10] <WhiteInferno> So you can play on both the PvE and the PvP
[11:10] <Matt4> must have missed it
[11:10] <WhiteInferno> ?
[11:10] <WhiteInferno> oh, hold on.
[11:10] <Moldy> White, think WoW
[11:10] <Matt4> We can be on multiple servers?
[11:11] <bblackmoor> Unrestricted PVP is for masochists, IMO, but I suppose if they want to pay, they should have a place to play.
[11:11] <Tritian> kickass, so i can grief the people on the PvE shard and then log into the PvP shard and grief the people there
[11:11] <Souleater> yeah multiple server, multiple accoutns per server, maybe some limits on PVP servers
[11:11] <Matt4> go for it trit -.-
[11:11] <Tritian> =D
[11:11] <WhiteInferno> <Rosethorn>  10WhiteInferno:  01Will we be allowed to have characters on different servers with one account, since it seems there will be a PvP/non-PvP server divide?
[11:11] <WhiteInferno> <awen_nd> Yes, we will allow you to have many different characters on many different shards. We're really open to allowing for alot of freedom.
[11:11] <Matt4> Im just waiting for them to announce an iron man (perma death) server
[11:12] <WhiteInferno> I'll have to edit those numbers out
[11:12] <WhiteInferno> Copied and pasted it all into word... :P
[11:12] <+NDHermann> MAtt4: "hardcore" servers would rock :)
[11:12] <+NDHermann> i wish other mmos would do that
[11:12] <Matt4> i know! people wouldnt be stupid anymore
[11:12] <+NDHermann> diablo 2 did it and I loved it
[11:12] <Slopey> I seem to remember that Scorch was quite keen on a hardcore perma death server - but then it was late and we were all drunk :)
[11:13] <Matt4> once your at the top you couldnt even be dum, you never know whos friends with whom :)
[11:13] <+NDHermann> yeah hardcore servers make it a midnight sweat fest
[11:13] <WhiteInferno> I'd probably die too often for that server
[11:13] <bblackmoor> What, a server where if your character dies, you have to make a new one?
[11:13] <+NDHermann> you get to like rank 45 or so and start to really get careful
[11:13] <+NDHermann> yup
[11:13] <Slopey> It might turn out to be a massive space based version of "Paranoia!" however!
[11:13] <bblackmoor> That's just stupid.
[11:13] <WhiteInferno> I'll be hanging out on both the PvP and the PvE shards, though.
[11:13] <+NDHermann> it's stupid if it's the only server :)
[11:13] <bblackmoor> Who would pay for that?
[11:14] <+NDHermann> but some people really like it.
[11:14] <Matt4> i had the most deaths of vanguard after the game had been up for a week, Id have to alter my stratagy :)
[11:14] <Dexmex> as for PvPservers: couldn't they just have some kind of police force like in EvE, although they should be beatable...
[11:14] <+NDHermann> thats why it hink it's all about options
06[11:14] * Slopey sings "Glory Glory Hail Computer, and my Clone goes marching on!"
[11:14] <+NDHermann> if you don't like hardcore servers... then you dont have to play on them :P
[11:14] <bblackmoor> I see. If it's something you can play for a hoot, and costs nothing extra in addition to the normal servers...
[11:14] <Souleater> yeah the more options the better
[11:14] <+NDHermann> exactly bblack
[11:14] <Matt4> bblackmoor i would, you would actually be impressive when your max level.
[11:14] <+NDHermann> just like d2...
[11:14] <bblackmoor> No harm in that, then.
[11:14] <WhiteInferno> Gah
[11:14] <Slopey> like Space Ponies!!! :
[11:14] <Tritian> i wouldn't want to start a new char every time i died... i'd be creating 10 new chars a night
[11:14] <+NDHermann> heheh
[11:15] <WhiteInferno> Hey, Hermann. Will the 6 characters be for each server, or 6 total per account.
[11:15] <WhiteInferno> ?
[11:15] <+NDHermann> i suspect you would be high on the foodchain in a server like that trit :)
[11:15] <+NDHermann> per shard
[11:15] <Matt4> wow
[11:15] <+NDHermann> might be 6.. might be more...
[11:15] <Tritian> all it takes is 2 MS missiles =D
[11:15] <WhiteInferno> *whistles*
[11:15] <WhiteInferno> Incredible.
[11:15] <Souleater> yeah Hardcore server would need a quick character create button :)
[11:15] <+NDHermann> hehe
[11:15] <+NDHermann> we've kicked around the idea
01[11:15] <selbie> maybe just a respawn :P
[11:15] <Matt4> soul: usually you just get reset to 0, not entirly gone
[11:16] <+NDHermann> people either say "wow, that's brutal, no way" or "ooh... that would be cool!"
[11:16] <Moldy> Hermann, I do have one question and I never got to ask it: Munitions. Will rockets be more usable/prominent in JGE? Or at least, your opinion on that stuff :P
[11:16] <Matt4> haha, your punishment is character creatation
[11:16] <Souleater> Matt4: ahh that would be better
[11:16] <+NDHermann> yes missiles will be better and more prevelent :)
[11:16] <Matt4> i mean you lose all your stuff too :P
[11:16] <+NDHermann> yeah and all your time.
[11:16] <+NDHermann> we've also talked about intermittent stuff like 1 day/level cooldown or something.
[11:16] <+NDHermann> to take a bit more of the edge off
[11:16] <bblackmoor> I hope it has the full set of flight controls. up/down, left/right, roll/roll, and also strafe up/down/left/right
[11:16] <Matt4> keep the fear in ya.
[11:17] <+NDHermann> but im worried about making it too wussy.
[11:17] <Souleater> yeah I got that, but at least I won't need to invite 16 different names :)
[11:17] <+NDHermann> bblackmoor: yup
[11:17] <bblackmoor> Splendid.
[11:17] <Matt4> haha can you imgaine, once a name is made an dies it cant be used again ;)
[11:17] <+NDHermann> hehe
[11:17] <+NDHermann> the name thing is actually a really funny problem
[11:17] <+NDHermann> cause you kind of have to keep the old characters in the db
[11:17] <WhiteInferno> Yeah
[11:17] <Souleater> lots of Souleater1, souleater2 ... Souleater99999
[11:18] <Tritian> hermann i had an interesting idea... to tie in the drag factor of the ships into the surface area of the triangles perpendicular to the vector of your ship. so basically the triangles that were facing flat-on in the direction you were going would cause an increase in your drag
[11:18] <WhiteInferno> Souleater -0.5?
[11:18] <+NDHermann> i bet souleater gets taken all the time :)
[11:18] <Matt4> age of conan strikes me as a really good game for that kind of server, so far as I know they don have one tho.
[11:18] <bblackmoor> There is another online space game with *excellent* flight controls, but the game play is so shallow, and there are only a dozen ships in the whole game. I hope JGE has more visual and gameplay interest.
[11:18] <WhiteInferno> Tritian... I have no idea what you just said.
[11:18] <+NDHermann> jeez trit :)
[11:18] <Moldy> blackmoor, VO?
[11:18] <Souleater> yeah I've managed to hold in a fair few games over the years
[11:18] <@Ocura> fippy darkpaw? :p
[11:18] <+NDHermann> so basically the strucutre of the ship effects drag depending on heading vector?
[11:18] <+NDHermann> something like that?
[11:19] <bblackmoor> Yes, Moldy, but I thought it impolitic to say so.
[11:19] <Matt4> i smell lag. cool but not worth the cost to the server.
[11:19] <Moldy> Sorry, I just like talking to people who used to play
[11:19] <+NDHermann> lag sucks...
[11:19] <+NDHermann> especailly for a game like JGE
[11:19] <Tritian> yeah... so you could use the model of the ship to causing braking and other manuevers , like a plane sim does
[11:19] <Moldy> never know when I remeet an old friend
[11:19] <Tritian> no lag, it;'s client side
[11:19] <Tritian> well
[11:19] <+NDHermann> we had some big issues with auto assault... as well.
[11:19] <+NDHermann> yeah
[11:19] <+NDHermann> trit is right
[11:19] <WhiteInferno> Good, you stuck the stuff in, slopey.
[11:19] <Souleater>  @Trit that would make rolling more useful, gliding sideways roll so your thin edge is pointing the way your gliding == less drag
[11:19] <+NDHermann> client side with chect checking
[11:20] <bblackmoor> I did not play it for long,Moldy. Less than a month.
[11:20] <+NDHermann> cheat.
[11:20] <Slopey> :)
[11:20] <Matt4> would it be tho, if the client was sending back a speed vector that seems exploitable
[11:20] <Moldy> heh
[11:20] <Matt4> mmm hermann you read my mind...and type faster
[11:20] <+NDHermann> hehe
[11:20] <+NDHermann> we've seen all kinds of cheats :)
[11:20] <bblackmoor> Will you be using a configurable UI, like WOW does? That's one of the most amazing parts of that game.
[11:20] <Slopey> however, if it's all client side, you then can't do as good prediction on the server side which also reduces lag
[11:20] <+NDHermann> its sort of like the cold war :)
03[11:21] * Ocura is now known as Ocura|AFK
[11:21] <Slopey> bblackmoor - start learning ActionScript
[11:21] <Tritian> souleater, yeah, you could do barrel rolls to catch up to someone
[11:21] <+NDHermann> network programming = what not to send and how often not to send it
[11:21] <Tritian> and split 8's i think they are called? other fighter-jet manuevers
[11:21] <Matt4> lol
[11:21] <Souleater> very cool :)
[11:21] <WhiteInferno> What, you have nukes pointed at the CCP headquarters and vice versa?
[11:21] <+NDHermann> hehe
[11:21] <WhiteInferno> :P
[11:21] <+NDHermann> the ccp guys are awesome
[11:22] <+NDHermann> i hope we can enjoy that kind of success at some point
[11:22] <WhiteInferno> Never actually played an MMO before
[11:22] <+NDHermann> why not?
[11:22] <Souleater> If you pull off everything thats being discussed, it should be an awesome experience :)
[11:22] <Matt4> me too. i was horribly addicted to eve at one point yet i couldnt stop playign counterstrike...seems like a good comprimise with JGE
[11:22] <WhiteInferno> Because I'm bad at conning my parents into paying for it. :P
[11:23] <+NDHermann> hahah yeah i know what you mean
[11:23] <Tritian> white: tell them if you werent playing JGE, you'd be smoking crack.
[11:23] <WhiteInferno> Nah, they know I act too good.
[11:23] <+NDHermann> our hope is that with JGE we can make a compelling experience for space flight game play as an mmo
[11:23] <Matt4> white...chances are your bank has online banking that can link you to paypal ;)
[11:23] <WhiteInferno> :P
[11:23] <WhiteInferno> Well, I'll see what I can do
[11:23] <+NDHermann> its always risky to try and make a "different" mmo...
[11:23] <Tritian> white: when they say no, you have to follow through and start taking up crack as a hobby though
[11:24] <+NDHermann> risks don't always pay off :) you tend to hear of the ones that do and ignore the ones that dont.
[11:24] <Matt4> i thinking its always risky makign an mmo period
[11:24] <WhiteInferno> heh. I'll just get a job on my own. I'll need a paid internship for school anyways.
[11:24] <+NDHermann> but i think that space combat is a well established market and lets face it... in dire need of some good products
[11:24] <Matt4> that said i imagne thats the whole computer game buissness :P
[11:24] <+NDHermann> yeah
[11:24] <+NDHermann> its about 90% financial loss i think
[11:24] <Matt4> might as well go big or go home right?
[11:24] <bblackmoor> The thing to make it addictive and continue the revenue stream is to have persistent elements. If every game sessions seems like a stand-alone dogfight, people will find it much easier to quit.
[11:24] <Tritian> white: sure, that's a possibility.... but going down that route, you don't have any crack.
[11:24] <+NDHermann> and 10% massive success :)
[11:24] <WhiteInferno> :P
[11:24] <Matt4> modern day gold diggers
[11:25] <+NDHermann> maybe you guys disagree but I think it's all about execution
[11:25] <Matt4> at least you dont need to walk through the yukon.
[11:25] <+NDHermann> especially on the low level combat stuff
[11:25] <Slopey> Hermann - have you had a chance to look at Age of Conan?  They seem to be bucking the established gameplay mechanisim to be "different" - given your comments on Auto Assault and too much "innovation" being a bad thing, I wonder if they're trying too hard?
[11:25] <+NDHermann> i think AoC is really fun actually
[11:25] <+NDHermann> my problem is my home machine doesn't run it
[11:25] <WhiteInferno> XD
[11:25] <+NDHermann> so i have to work out if i can convince my wife to buy a new machine to play an MMO :)
[11:25] <Matt4> slopey i think theyre building off a more established system tho
[11:26] <+NDHermann> I can claim "research" I suppose :)
[11:26] <@Rosethorn> hehe i hear ya hermann, my 3 year old comp barely runs it
[11:26] <Matt4> fantasy if you follow
[11:26] <Souleater> I think lots of well implemented basics is better than lots of badly implemented features
[11:26] <+NDHermann> exactly soul
[11:26] <@Rosethorn> i'll get a new 'work computer' in july, cant' wait
[11:26] <Matt4> hermann do they have a "hardcore" server?
[11:26] <WhiteInferno> I got a nice computer...
[11:26] <+NDHermann> that is the core of thin slice development
[11:26] <@Rosethorn> yes matt
[11:26] <@Rosethorn> they have FFA
[11:26] <Matt4> gasp!
[11:26] <Slopey> :) indeed - little does the wife know it'll be new computer time around JGE release
[11:26] <+NDHermann> im not sure if it's permadeath
[11:26] <Matt4> perma death?
[11:26] <Matt4> hmmm
[11:26] <@Rosethorn> oh gosh no, no permadeath
[11:26] <+NDHermann> funcom did a good job i think
[11:26] <@Rosethorn> is taht your definition of hardcore?
[11:26] <Matt4> lol dang
[11:26] <@Rosethorn> cause that's scary
[11:26] <bblackmoor> Time for me to go. Thanks for hanging around to chat. I will be following your progress!
[11:26] <+NDHermann> well it's blizzard's definition :)
[11:26] <WhiteInferno> I want to see hermann get run over by a hauler.
[11:26] <+NDHermann> see ya!
[11:26] <+NDHermann> haha
[11:27] <WhiteInferno> See ya, bblackmoor.
[11:27] <WhiteInferno> :P
[11:27] <Slopey> nn bb
[11:27] <+NDHermann> i think ive now played JGE more than anyone.
[11:27] <+NDHermann> but that will change :)
[11:27] <Matt4> ya ive been calling them "iron man" servers but apparently im alone on that one
[11:27] <WhiteInferno> You are a very evil and very good man.
[11:27] <+NDHermann> we're in iteration hell
[11:27] <Matt4> always have a play testing sign on your door?
[11:27] <Souleater> in fact a classic example for me, was SWG, the intial crafting was pretty good and detailed, weapon crafting you had build parts and assemble.. great stuff for the crafters... but then they introduce vehicles, and now you jsut need abig hunk of metal and viola vehicle.... really bad
[11:27] <+NDHermann> hehe
[11:27] <WhiteInferno> The movie is good, though.
[11:27] <WhiteInferno> SWG... I got the trial.
[11:28] <WhiteInferno> Broke on the third day.
[11:28] <+NDHermann> soul... it's so easy to misjudge the impact of changes
[11:28] <WhiteInferno> Actually, I believe it was the second day.
[11:28] <Slopey> Neocron had one of the best crafting systems evar - but limited players so the crafting market was swamped - difficult thing to balance
[11:28] <Matt4> about your low level combat tho hermann, your right, since its a comba game that is whats going to drag people in
[11:28] <WhiteInferno> Hermann, if you are going to make any trial, make sure it works.
[11:28] <+NDHermann> so on basic combat... flying and shooting
[11:28] <Tritian> Hermann: when you guys mentioned consensual pvp, would it be impossible to kill someone who chooses not to allow themselves to die, in one of these consensual pvp areas?
[11:28] <+NDHermann> we had that in about 6-8 weeks of development time.
[11:28] <@Rosethorn> a tale in the desert has the best crafting systems!
[11:29] <Matt4> i think one of the biggest things is dont get to repetitions too fast
[11:29] <+NDHermann> and then spent about 3 months "polishing" it
[11:29] <+NDHermann> trit: That is the plan, yes.
[11:29] <Slopey> rose - you are bang on - especially ATITD2 - gotta love that
[11:29] <+NDHermann> oh wait
[11:29] <+NDHermann> you mean in the pvp zone?
[11:29] <Tritian> no
[11:29] <+NDHermann> you mean in the "safe" zone?
[11:29] <Tritian> ya
[11:29] <+NDHermann> yes.
[11:29] <Tritian> heh
[11:30] <+NDHermann> The thing that is really hard to determine is intent.
[11:30] <Souleater> oh yeah I appreciate that, infact I'm currently at work supporting a major release :), but at least keep it consitent, having one piece of crafting work one way and another completely different just looks like different people implemented them with out talking to each other (somehow sounds familar though)
[11:30] <WhiteInferno> Question. What if we get trolls in the game?
[11:30] <+NDHermann> we have people accidentally attacking each other all the time :)
[11:30] <Slopey> Hermann - the concept of "choosing not to die" is somewhat alien to most exisiting JGC players, or space sim Elite types - it's more a recent affliction of the WoW crowd
[11:30] <+NDHermann> it's kind of an evolution I think
[11:30] <@Rosethorn> the WoW crowd is 10 million big though hehe
[11:30] <+NDHermann> I played UO in alpha and early beta
[11:30] <WhiteInferno> Pun intended?
[11:30] <+NDHermann> where it was basically kill fest free for all
[11:30] <@Rosethorn> sort of dwarfs the rest hehe
[11:30] <+NDHermann> tons of fun imho
[11:30] <Tritian> yeah, a little piece of me died inside when i read that consensual pvp zone quote in that one article
[11:30] <+NDHermann> but drove out all the pve players.
[11:30] <Matt4> well sicne trit asked, on the PVP servers, will it be kill anywhere, or will the safe zone have consequences as opposed to it beign impossible?
[11:31] <Slopey> true - can't argue with 10M players, for that, lets go PvE only!! ;)
[11:31] <Souleater> yeah I loved UO before they split the shards to pve and pvp
[11:31] <+NDHermann> so as they eased it to be more friendly their numbers grew
[11:31] <+NDHermann> slop: keep in mind 50% of wow servers are pvp servers.
[11:31] <WhiteInferno> Wha
[11:31] <WhiteInferno> Gah, stupid enter key.
[11:31] <@Rosethorn> hehe, a game needs to allow all play types, and I know JGE Is doing that
[11:31] <+NDHermann> thus what happend in UO to me shows how people behave
[11:31] <Matt4> with 8 mil ppl playing thats a pretty reliable demographic
[11:31] <+NDHermann> there are lots of people that hate being killed
[11:31] <+NDHermann> and they simply won't play
[11:31] <+NDHermann> then there are people who hate the idea of safe games like trit here :)
[11:32] <+NDHermann> and they are both totally valid positions
[11:32] <Slopey> Yep - I'm generalising.... badly!
[11:32] <WhiteInferno> What about those who go on just to spam the chat with stupid messages? A recent troll on the JGE forums comes to mind.
[11:32] <+NDHermann> personally... I'm on the fence
[11:32] <+NDHermann> i think most MMO devs spend about 20% of their time/budget dealing with annoying people that make up a tiny fraction of users
[11:32] <+NDHermann> it really sucks.
[11:32] <Tritian> i say give them their server, give us our server, and a reach-around, cause i'm feeling frisky
[11:32] <WhiteInferno> >_> I can't derail this speeding train, apparently. :P
[11:32] <+NDHermann> heheh
[11:32] <Matt4> and you said you liked "hardcore servers" :p
[11:32] <Souleater> its very true, if you want the largest percentage of people you have to have safer servers, but its good that your still catering for the percentage that prefer a bit more risk
[11:32] <Slopey> White - free speech and all that - but we spotted him early on and Awen banned his ass.
[11:32] <+NDHermann> i agree trit
[11:32] <Tritian> about the reacharound?
06[11:32] * Tritian prepares
[11:32] <+NDHermann> it's like abotion... people have VERY strong opinions and it's hard to convince them
[11:33] <+NDHermann> we'll talk offline :)
[11:33] <Tritian> ooo
[11:33] <+NDHermann> actually i think that PvP and PVe might be more controversial than abortion :P
[11:33] <Dexmex> hee
[11:33] <Souleater> lol
[11:33] <WhiteInferno> Yeah.
[11:33] <Slopey> At least with multiple chars on multiple shards there should be somewhere for everyone :)
[11:33] <+NDHermann> the one thing that I can't solve...
[11:34] <+NDHermann> is that it's really fun to PvP people that don't want to be killed
[11:34] <Tritian> there is only one thing you can't solve?
[11:34] <+NDHermann> the problem is that they end up quitting
[11:34] <Dexmex> why not just have some kinda police in reg space like Eve?
[11:34] <Dexmex> just not THAT hard..
[11:34] <+NDHermann> and so the people that hate the idea of people being allowed to be safe are the players you can't appease
[11:34] <+NDHermann> and I'm not sure how to work around that one.
[11:34] <Matt4> lol hermann, your your own worst enemy as a game owned
[11:34] <Matt4> owner*
[11:34] <Slopey> Hermann - you need to give away "Cannon Fodder" subscriptions - they don't pay as long as Trit gets to shoot them :)
[11:34] <+NDHermann> heheh
[11:34] <+NDHermann> PvP servers are free :)
[11:34] <+NDHermann> PvE costs money or something...
[11:34] <Souleater> :)
[11:35] <Slopey> Woot!!!  I'm loggint this remember!
[11:35] <+NDHermann> that's a tough business case to sell to the "suits"
[11:35] <Matt4> i have a plan, go play eve, greif everyone, then open a no grief JGE server.
[11:35] <WhiteInferno> If they can't take the heat, they should get out of the kitchen.
[11:35] <Tritian> i don't enjoy killing defenseless people. i enjoy RP'ing a pirate and being chased by people and escaping =D
[11:35] <@Rosethorn> Trit, you can always pay their sub fees to shoot hem
[11:35] <Souleater> every month 5% of PVE players get sucked into a PVP server for a month...
[11:35] <@Rosethorn> them
[11:35] <WhiteInferno> Trit: That's exactly what I want to do. Except I'm the escort.
[11:35] <Slopey> Actually - is there any game out there which actively transfers portions of sub fees to ripped players?
[11:35] <+NDHermann> i expect that what will happen is that there will be a good chunk of people that do PvE stuff only...
[11:35] <Tritian> all i know is... the pvp server won't have gold farmers. the pve server will have them. =D
[11:35] <+NDHermann> and a good chunk that do PvP only
[11:36] <+NDHermann> and then there will be people that migrate from PvE to PvP
[11:36] <+NDHermann> because that's what other MMOs see
[11:36] <+NDHermann> trit: you might be right there
[11:36] <WhiteInferno> Or there will be those with characters on both.
[11:36] <+NDHermann> however won't that make gold farming that much more lucrative :)
[11:36] <Tritian> it's hard to gold farm when you're being shot for being annoying as hell
[11:36] <+NDHermann> its true
[11:36] <WhiteInferno> XD
[11:36] <Souleater> very true, gold farmers would have hell of a time on PVP servers
[11:37] <+NDHermann> this is why I love MMOs so much because you make something for other people who play together.
[11:37] <Matt4> u cud make it so anyone who makes to much money in a day explodes?
[11:37] <+NDHermann> and there's all these unpredictable results
[11:37] <WhiteInferno> How do you gold farm in a skill based game anyway? It makes no sense.
[11:37] <Matt4> mining bots
[11:37] <Matt4> just that easy
[11:37] <+NDHermann> basically what we've seen is that no matter what you intend the audience to do they will be creative and come up with all kinds of new stuff
[11:37] <Tritian> i think a GM should translocate any gold farmers to the PvP server if their spamming gets annoying
[11:37] <Tritian> >:D
[11:37] <WhiteInferno> Amen, trit.
[11:37] <+NDHermann> and then we scratch our heads and think "jeez... how did htat happen"
[11:37] <Souleater> definately Trit
[11:37] <+NDHermann> hehe
[11:38] <Matt4> makes hem more interesting hermann :)
[11:38] <+NDHermann> The other thing that's tricky is that the vast majority of people don't tell you anything.
[11:38] <WhiteInferno> Matter of fact, we should be able to transfer characters from server to server. That would be better than just making more than one character, in my opinion
[11:38] <+NDHermann> you guys represent this thin sliver of users that really care and think about this stuff a lot
[11:38] <+NDHermann> most people will go to the site and decide "looks cool" or "crap"
[11:38] <Matt4> white then u could level on a PVE and goto a PVP...not exctly fair
[11:38] <+NDHermann> then login for 5 minutes and decide "fun" or "crap"
[11:38] <Tritian> but we need to be fed! we need more info
[11:38] <Tritian> MORE INFO
[11:38] <WhiteInferno> Ah, true.
[11:38] <+NDHermann> hehe
[11:39] <WhiteInferno> I don't think, period. :P
[11:39] <Tritian> 16,1 1,11,15,1`%1,5%¸5,54,5`%5,4%¸4,47,4`%4,7%¸7,78,7`%7,8%¸8,816,8`%8,16%¸1,0when is beta?!16,168,16`%16,8%¸8,87,8`%8,7%¸7,74,7`%7,4%¸4,45,4`%4,5%¸5,51,5`%5,1%¸1,11,1 16,1
[11:39] <+NDHermann> doing the blind playtests has been a real eye opener...
[11:39] <+NDHermann> no pun intended
[11:39] <+NDHermann> trit: I actually really don't know.
[11:39] <Souleater> :)
[11:39] <WhiteInferno> Wow. Shiney, trit.
[11:39] <Tritian> hehe
[11:39] <WhiteInferno> Anyways, I need to go
[11:39] <Tritian> l8r
[11:39] <Souleater> later
[11:39] <+NDHermann> honestly our worry is going into public test too soon.
[11:39] <Matt4> nice talking with ya white
[11:39] <+NDHermann> see ya!
[11:40] <cyberdeath> =)
[11:40] <WhiteInferno> You to. See ya all later.
[11:40] <Matt4> do we count as public? since we are your thin sliver of players...
[11:40] <Dexmex> >>herman: If there were some kinda police that is not too powerful. Like they can relatively easy kill seasoned pvp players in high reg, and when it gets lower, they get less powerfull and slower to react. in some way like Eve, but this is skill based, so you'd actually be able to run away and such. How about that?
[11:40] <+NDHermann> i can't count the number of times I've been psyched for a new mmo, it goes into beta and I think "crap" oh well... next.
[11:40] <Tritian> NDHermann, have you guys read my thread full of good ideas and amusing flame wars on the JGE dev forum about the consensual pvp?
[11:40] <Matt4> threads*
[11:40] <Matt4> -.-
[11:40] <+NDHermann> I do read those threads in particular... from time to time
[11:41] <+NDHermann> I can't help myself though it can be a painful experience :)
[11:41] <Matt4> to read them all would be to go insane
[11:41] <+NDHermann> the honest truth is that you guys have lots of good ideas.
[11:41] <+NDHermann> and we borrow quite liberally
[11:41] <Matt4> do i make it to the credits if you use races of aim competitions?
[11:41] <Matt4> or*
[11:41] <Slopey> sssssh - please don't give Tritian any more excuses!! He was just calming down!!!!
[11:42] <+NDHermann> dex: the problem is intent. plus, how much harder are they and how often do new people get killed and how do you fight it when people figure out a way to beat it.
[11:42] <+NDHermann> dex: vs. just protect them and spend dev time doing more features/content/polish :)
[11:42] <+NDHermann> it's really those kinds of decisions that make dev process brutal
[11:43] <+NDHermann> In Eve I feel like it's really instakill at the low level game play
[11:43] <+NDHermann> I watched my wife accidentally attack a "friendly" and get instantly killed... that was her last minute playing the game
[11:43] <Dexmex> yeah, that's why i mensioned the difference with skill..
[11:43] <+NDHermann> seems like if they prevented it she might still be playing... and the gain they have is that it feels more real... which is more real.
[11:43] <Matt4> it is, but that almost is what they want for the new player
[11:43] <+NDHermann> so those are the conflictingthings.
[11:44] <Matt4> mmm....have had that happen
[11:44] <Dexmex> i just think there may be a way, with 'some' kind of mix..
[11:44] <+NDHermann> so when I consider that. I look at two cases 1) have teleporting bots that near insta-kill aggressors in safe areas and rely on the players to not shoot friendlies.
[11:44] <+NDHermann> 2) protect newbies so that they never take damage in "safe" areas
[11:44] <+NDHermann> 1 is hard to implement and unreliable
[11:45] <+NDHermann> 2 is easy to implement and fail safe
[11:45] <Tritian> there is another option
[11:45] <+NDHermann> 1 is realistic
[11:45] <+NDHermann> 2 is totally unrealistic
[11:45] <Tritian> 3. bots on patrol routes
[11:45] <+NDHermann> right but that is similar to 1
[11:45] <Matt4> newbies or everyone tho?
[11:45] <Tritian> no it's different
[11:45] <Matt4> theres a key question...
[11:45] <Tritian> they don't insta-spawn
[11:45] <+NDHermann> for example, I'm a crappy player and I accidentally shoot an innocent what happens?
[11:45] <Tritian> and they give you a chance to escape
[11:45] <+NDHermann> i.e. a new pilot with bad aim :)
[11:46] <Slopey> imho 2 is the only way to really do it properly - provided the safe areas are limited to a reasonable extent - the definition of reasonable is probably contentious
[11:46] <+NDHermann> or even worse... I'm a good player who wants to make it so that you "attack" me :)
[11:46] <Tritian> the bots come after you, but there is a timer... so perhaps if you attack an innocent and then stop, the bots will fly to the area to investiage but won't kill you since you haven't doena ny permanent damage
[11:46] <+NDHermann> so my game will be running up to enw players getting in their way till they shoot me then watch the bots kill them :)
[11:47] <Slopey> But Trit - event the act of shooting a n00b down to armor might make them quit if they feel they've been unfairly attacked
[11:47] <+NDHermann> so then i will hit you till the threshhold that i still wont be killed by the bot and hope the ai finishes you off
[11:47] <+NDHermann> or i take 5 shots and my friend takes 5 shots and so on
[11:47] <Tritian> they arent dead though... and shooting down to armor would get the bots to kill you
[11:47] <Tritian> so *shrug*
[11:47] <+NDHermann> or i reduce my shield to almost nothing then have you shoot me so it looks like you did enough damage :)
[11:48] <Tritian> Herman: you hve a mayday button
[11:48] <+NDHermann> basically anything beyond total protection allows for a battle with players as to what is considered intolerable threat :)
[11:48] <Tritian> so if someone is killing you up the threshold, hit the mayday button
[11:48] <Tritian> and the bots will definitely help you
[11:48] <+NDHermann> right
[11:48] <+NDHermann> but im looking at the opposite case
[11:48] <+NDHermann> that is im trying to ruin your game
[11:48] <+NDHermann> so i fly around in front of you till you hit me and then I hit mayday and watch the protectors kill you
[11:49] <+NDHermann> or... if it's not a one shot thing
[11:49] <Matt4> I agree hermann, how widly this is implemented is the key.
[11:49] <Tritian> maybe make it so that the bots chase you out of the sector but don't kill you unless that person has dented your armor
[11:49] <selbie> but that would depend on your nation/faction as well wouldn't it?
[11:49] <+NDHermann> I fire at you within the thresshold just before oyu can hit mayday and hope I can do enough damage that AI kills you
[11:49] * Slopey is loving this - it's like a million forum threads condensed into 10 minutes - yay!!! :)
[11:49] <+NDHermann> im not saying that other solutions aren't possible
[11:49] <+NDHermann> they certainly are
[11:49] <+NDHermann> and what trit is recommending is totally possible
[11:50] <Matt4> theyre jsut a lot harder.
[11:50] <+NDHermann> it's just a question of what I was saying before... dev hours spend vs. advantage to game
[11:50] <Tritian> i admit, its a convoluted system
[11:50] <Tritian> and i hate convoluted systems
[11:50] <Matt4> And i don't mean that in a bad way hermann, realistically theres more important things
[11:50] <+NDHermann> also I hate it when games allow for something and then punish me for doing it.
[11:50] <Tritian> chances are if you are adding all these rules to make something work, there is a better way of doing it more elegantly
[11:50] <+NDHermann> and I agree trit... hard to explain is usually bad
[11:51] <+NDHermann> yeah. and that's why the "worst best" solution is PvE here PvP there.
[11:51] <Slopey> well, if we end up with option 2 (safe areas) at release, it can always be relaxed later :)
[11:51] <Tritian> i disagree with that
[11:51] <Matt4> as long as I can make my squad and wage a battle to dominate the rest of space, im happy.
[11:51] <+NDHermann> if you wander into a pvp zone and get ganked... tough luck don't go there
[11:51] <Tritian> the best solution is pvp everywhere, and give the community the tools to track and police themselves
[11:51] <Matt4> trit: i cant see that working in a game this size
[11:52] <Slopey> can't agree with that Trit - think of the n00bs and retention
[11:52] <Matt4> not and have it be a financial success
[11:52] <Tritian> people won't kill other people if there are deterents - bounties, factional defenders, PR hits
[11:52] <Dexmex> heeh i guess. I just think, with this being a skill based game, and you have that wonderful AIsystem, a better method could be developed...
[11:52] <+NDHermann> UO tried those things
[11:52] <Souleater> Agreed, the communtiy should be self policing, but it does depend on the number of responisble players vs the other playuers :)
[11:52] <Tritian> UO is not skill-based
[11:52] <+NDHermann> they had bounties, defensive players and so on
[11:52] <Tritian> you can't be a griefer in JG without being a damn good pilot
[11:52] <+NDHermann> people see bounties as a challenge to kill more :)
[11:52] <Tritian> so take that into consideration
[11:52] <Tritian> more people == more defenders
[11:52] <+NDHermann> but the people that are intollerant of PvP don't play JG anymore.
[11:52] <Tritian> == more people to hide from if you are a douche
[11:52] <Slopey> unfortunately, as there's no decision on bounty/PR hits etc (at least not publicly), we'll need to wait and see
[11:53] <Souleater> indeed, but bounties we're good, we spent lots of time collecting bounties :)
[11:53] <+NDHermann> that's the problem... people who want only PvE will just leave
[11:53] <Matt4> i know trit but im saying that one player who doesnt get defended could leave the game after 10 min of play
[11:53] <Matt4> since there multiple servers anyway, why not have the rulesets for everyone?
[11:53] <Matt4> which is what you agreed to before...with a reach around
[11:54] <Tritian> matt4: can't please everywhere. not everyone will like the game, but there are people who are attracted to that type of game for the very reasons that others might quit. you have to make a choice as to what your target audience is
[11:54] <+NDHermann> trit: that's exactly correct
[11:54] <+NDHermann> trit: the people who you lose when you have a PvE and PvP server are the ones who hate the idea of a safe game
[11:54] <Matt4> and more servers widen that audience no? why bicker about what you don't have to play? Or im way off the mark here
[11:54] <Souleater> the reach around aside, I think  servers for each ruleset is best.  I was worried orginally about the idea, but I think its the only way
[11:55] <+NDHermann> because it's a legitimate gripe to say that having a PvE server makes the game artificial
[11:55] <+NDHermann> compared to haveing a game that is PvP with player enforcement
[11:55] <Tritian> I will not play a game that does not give me a reach-around
[11:55] <+NDHermann> I totally get that
[11:55] <Matt4> those 2 lines make an excellent out of context quote btw
[11:55] <+NDHermann> hhehe
[11:55] <Tritian> =D
[11:55] <Slopey> lol
[11:55] <Souleater> yeah slopey I hope you updating the log ;)
[11:55] <+NDHermann> for example if CS had "PvE" servers... it would kind of ruin the game :)
[11:55] <+NDHermann> or at least be a different game
[11:56] <Tritian> i used to RP a hostage negotiator in CSS
[11:56] <+NDHermann> heheh sweet
[11:56] <Dexmex> Ok, well nice talking to yall, we'll just see what happens with all the pvp -pve :) NN
[11:56] <Tritian> it was great fun, but i kinda pissed off my team =D
[11:56] <Souleater> it would be a different game, but equally if you don't want to play PVE, theres plenty of PVP servers around
[11:56] <Slopey> Soul - it's all logged ;)  I've posted the "proper" tidbits already - Trit vs Hermann, I'll post later :)
[11:56] <Tritian> hah
[11:56] <+NDHermann> hehe
[11:56] <+NDHermann> its all good
[11:56] <+NDHermann> I enjoy the debate
[11:56] <+NDHermann> sharp swords are forged in fire and being smashed with hammers
[11:57] <Slopey> that's a bit deep!
[11:57] <+NDHermann> not by everyone crowding around a campfire singing kum-by-ah
[11:57] <Matt4> lay off lotr... :P
[11:57] <Souleater> unless singing kum-by-ah summons a demon of unstopable power to smite you enemies ....
[11:57] <+NDHermann> i will say this: we will make mistakes and bad decisions, but we will make them honestly believing that it makes a better game :)
[11:58] <+NDHermann> for what that's worth
[11:58] <Tritian> it's a tough topic, one that breeds a lot of emotion. in the end, I hope there will be a server that I can play on where i can RP my character choice, and others have the oppurtunity to RP their character choices, without gameplay mechanics getting in the way and making that impossible or very difficult.
[11:58] <+NDHermann> which might be nothing.
[11:58] <Slopey> Right guys - 3am here, so i need to sneak into the sack!  I'll stay afk so I get everyone's mindless banter
[11:58] <+NDHermann> ok man
[11:58] <+NDHermann> I gotta get home too
[11:58] <Souleater> later Slopey
[11:58] <+NDHermann> my wife will kill me otherwise
[11:58] <Matt4> mmm gf is beside me on couch at this point
[11:58] <Slopey> Thanks again Hermann - great Dev Chat :)
[11:58] <+NDHermann> yeah they're fun
[11:58] <Tritian> night herbert =D
[11:58] <Souleater> cheers hermann
[11:58] <Slopey> And Rose et all too!
[11:58] <Matt4> indeed, thanks a lot
[11:58] <+NDHermann> heheh
[11:58] <+NDHermann> nite guys
[11:58] <Slopey> and give my regards to Awen :)
[11:59] <Slopey> nn all
[11:59] <Matt4> Ill talk to y'all later :)
[11:59] <+NDHermann> hopefully i wont get smacked down tomorrow for "saying too much"
[11:59] <+NDHermann> :)
[11:59] <Matt4> remember who stuck around when beta rolls around...
[11:59] <Matt4> ^^
[11:59] <Slopey> lol - I'm posting them logs - specifically "PVP SERVERS ARE FREE!!!!"
[11:59] <+NDHermann> I will :)
[11:59] <+NDHermann> heheh
[11:59] <Tritian> get working on closed beta, and my invite!
[11:59] <Matt4> haha screen shoted
[11:59] <+NDHermann> yeah... take things out of context...
[11:59] <+NDHermann> evil
[11:59] <+NDHermann> cyas
[11:59] <Matt4> cant wait, lol ok really gotta go
02[11:59] * +NDHermann (~JavaUser@64.2.141.158.ptr.us.xo.net) Quit (Quit: GameSurge - The Next Step in the Evolution of Gaming IRC)